Double the Thrills: A Memorial Day Special!

On today's 228th episode of the Thriller Zone.

It's what I'm calling a double shot of thrill seeking behavior from your good friend and podcast host, Dave Temple.

Hello there.

Now, what do I mean by that?

Well, first of all, today's show is a Thursday throwback.

Why do you ask?

Two reasons.

It's Memorial Day weekend and, well, frankly, Daddy needs to take a break.

You see, Tammy and I have been, as my late mother used to say, we've been burning the candle on both ends and it's thin enough to skate on.

Now, I never really fully understood that saying, but you get the idea.

So, yeah, the two temples are taking a break this week.

The second reason, as I was reflecting upon past shows I really enjoyed, I thought, hey, I'm going to go back to last year's Memorial Day weekend show where I found Mr.

Jon Katzenbach talking about his dark thriller Jack's Boys.

Then I thought, well, wait a minute.

What if we were to go back two years?

And that brought me to Matthew Quirk, the creator of the Night Agent, and where we talked about his riveting thriller and inside threat.

So what does it mean?

Well, this means for your long Memorial Day holiday weekend here in the States, anyway, you're about to enjoy a twofer Thursday, AKA Thriller double shot with two giants of thriller fiction, John Katzenbach and Matthew Quirk.

So kick back in your lawn chair, stretch out on your hammock, pull out a cool beverage or two, unless, of course, you're driving to see family and enjoy two, two, two hits in one here on the Thriller Zone.

Let's get into the Thriller Z with John Kessenbach.

Well, I think we are officially warmed up.

Welcome to the Thriller Zone, John Katzenbach.

It is so nice to have you here.

It's my pleasure, you know.

Absolutely.

Look at this bad boy.

Yes.

Jack's Boys.

When I miss a day at the gym, I just grab your book and I do a couple of overhead presses and it really works me well.

David.

It is.

It is longer than I typically.

Right.

When you sit down, you realize you've got this story, and then you get way into it and you realize you're not there yet, so you start rowing faster.

Right.

And I'm pretty pleased with this book, frankly.

You should be.

It's 608 pages of tasty goodness.

Yeah.

Well, thank you.

Thank you, really.

Actually, what you're talking about is the nature of story.

Yes.

And one of the things that sort of, especially in the world of thrillers, you worry about is not being Complete and not being sort of psychologically attuned to every character, so that when you get to the end, no one's saying, whatever happened to Ralph back there.

I really worry about these things far more than anyone should worry about them.

Well, I think you make a really interesting point, and I have learned this lately, and it's a phrase that says something to the effect of trust the reader to recall a lot of that stuff.

Because I was kind of like.

I'm like, well, I need to remind them all along.

No, David, you don't need to remind them.

They give them credit.

They know who's what and where.

Frankly, David, most readers are smarter than I at remembering all that stuff.

I think that that is a testimonial to the sophistication that most thriller readers have.

Yeah.

About plot, story, and character, which are, you know, the sort of the, you know, the, you know, triumvirate that we're all working under.

Yeah, the meat and potatoes of it.

Yeah, exactly.

We're going to dive into Jack's Boys, of course.

But I want to do this.

I want to take a little bit of a moment and talk about backstory or prologue, if will.

I mean, let's talk about you.

I want to get to know you because I remember your name years ago.

I have lost touch with you over the years.

I remember.

Oh, John can't.

Yeah.

Year.

Like, years ago.

Like the movies.

And then.

We're going to get to this in a minute.

And I mentioned.

I'm going to mention a couple of movies, and I'm like, well, I know those movies very well, so it's so funny that I feel like I've known you for.

Well, one of your movies came out the 85.

A mean season.

I want to say, like 85.

86.

A little earlier.

82.

82, too.

I want to know.

You were a criminal court reporter at both the Miami Herald and the News.

How did your work there as a reporter influence your eventual fiction writing?

I always love that particular inquiry.

Okay, that.

That.

Because I went to newspapers because I wanted to be able to write fiction, but I didn't know anything.

Oh.

And so I went to newspapers to learn about the world as a journalist, every day.

I considered it like going to the theater, because what I would see and what I would hear would register.

And in some kind of great psychological, Freudian mix of things, you know, you'd hear things and pull them out later and install them into the books.

The value in all of that, it's immense because you see people in all Forms of good, bad, and evil that became the template or the undercurrent for just about everything I've written.

I so love the way you put that because you really went to school at the paper to learn the craft that you eventually turn into a real career.

Well, my wife often says that I learned everything I needed to know about psychopathology in prep school.

But the fact of the matter is, it's really those days as a newspaper reporter and, you know, starting in New Jersey and then down in Miami.

I was in Miami at the world's greatest time to be a reporter.

I mean, there were.

There were just everything that was crazy and weird and wonderful happened all at once.

Heck, you know, I found a dead body once.

So, I mean, you know.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Stop the presses.

Where.

What were you doing?

And where did you find said body?

I was in.

I was working for the Herald.

I was.

I had a.

I had a couple days off.

So I was jogging through our neighborhood in Coral Gables, which is a absolutely net now is.

It's like, you know, as fancy as you can get.

Oh, yeah.

And I'm jogging along, David, and I look into this empty lot, and there is, you know, a body out there.

So walked over and.

And, you know, this was at the height of the drug wars, and the guy wearing a leather Porsche jacket, you know, gold, you know, chains around his neck, Rolex on his.

On his wrist, and single gunshot wound to the back of the head.

You know, I went.

Reached down, you know, felt the carotid artery and, you know, it was cold and so knocked on a neighbor's door and said, please call the police.

Now, here's the funny part about this story, right?

You know, the police showed up, and I'm waiting there by the body for them, and they come up and they.

You know, the first patrol car comes up and two guys get out and they come over and they say, that's a dead body.

This is what.

What in the.

The prosecutor's office in Dade county they used to call felony littering at that point.

And one of the cops looks down at me and says, did you see the Rolex?

Yeah.

I said, yeah.

And he just shakes his head like.

Like, you know, any damn fool would have reached down there, taken the Rolex, put it in their pocket, you know, and then called the police.

Yeah, I mean, but, I mean, that's.

I mean, that was what Miami was like back then.

You know, you name it, it happened in Florida.

What does this say about you that you didn't lift the rollie well, it.

Says that I'm a fundamentally honest guy and not quite as smart as I think I should be.

Nice to make this the story somewhat serious.

Okay.

You know, it was understanding.

You know, you're sitting there as a reporter and you realize how valueless certain lives can be.

And then for me, I, I had to say to myself, okay, how am I going to measure that?

Remember that sensation?

And how is that going to go into a novel at a later point?

So there's a great correlation between all these things.

So that visceral, palpable chill, so to speak, of finding a dead body you translated into a future story.

Can you remember where that story went?

Where that experience was woven into a story?

Can you recall?

I think that there are elements of it and the sort of callousness that I felt for this, you know, dead drug dealer and the cops that showed up and the Rolex, you know, I took that sort of, you know, this where you sort of become a psychopath in that moment.

And I've installed that in the characters in Jack's Boys.

There are some twisted nellies in there, that's for sure.

We're going to drill down on that in just a second, but I got a two part question which I'm kind of famous for.

How long were you at these two papers, ballparkish, and were you writing fiction on the side while covering the beat or were you.

Because I, I got a pretty good idea that you're working long hours, long days in a week, but did you scroll away some time where you would, you know, inject some of that data that you were gathering while writing or did you just kind of go, I just need to get this job done.

And then later down the road I'll, I'll start the real writing.

I'm glad you asked that actually.

You know, there's the old saw about every reporter's got a novel in their desk drawer.

Yeah, mine was all in my head.

And there reached a point where I realized I'd been a reporter for about 11, 12, 13 years covering all sorts of stuff.

And I realized that if I didn't take the time and try to write a novel at that point, that the opportunity might slide past.

So I actually took, I had to get a new apartment.

I was with my soon to be wife and we had to get a new apartment.

And this guy had this wonderful old Gables apartment in a building that he was intending to tear down eventually.

So he said to us, you know, he said, you guys can have.

The apartment is $140 a month enough.

It was like getting a, it was like getting a grant, you know, I mean, yeah, a MacArthur Grant, you know, a genius grant, sure.

I said, yes, we can pay that.

And so about the next day, I went into the paper and I said, I'm going to take a leave of absence.

Shortly before then I had had, you know, that sort of aha.

Conversation with my soon to be wife where she had asked me how had things gone that day at the newspaper.

And I said, well, you know, everything's okay.

I got a good story or two.

But, you know, I got half dozen phone calls from the jail.

You know, those guys always call up and say, I didn't do it.

And they all did.

And, and I said, wouldn't it be more interesting if somebody called and said I did do it?

Yeah.

And that became, I went, ah.

And that became the basis for the, my very first novel, which is, you know, a reporter gets a call from a guy saying, let me explain why I killed that person.

Wow.

And what's the name of that one.

That was in the Heat of the Summer.

It became filmed with as the Mean Season with Kurt Russell and Meryl Hemingway.

Yeah, yeah.

As long as I'm rambling, let me give you one funny story about.

Please ramble away.

The sub, the subplot in that was Vietnam.

You know, this guy was at that in Vietnam Vet.

And when it came to the film people, the producer, David Foster called me up and said, ah, you know, Vietnam's been done.

We got to lose Vietnam.

And I of course said, well, you know, we lost it once in real life, we can lose it again, I guess, you know, but anyway, time passes and we're, they're filming the, the, the big, big final scene and they're out in the Everglades and there are these SWAT teams running around and helicopters going up overhead.

And David turns to me and he goes, oh, I get it.

Helicopters, SWAT teams, jungle.

It's Vietnam.

I go, yeah, it's a little late now.

Right, but that's pretty much what I was trying to get at.

Right.

And you know, so there you have, I mean that's, you know, that, that whole thing, but it was, it was actually a wonderful moment.

But, but that was my first book.

Yeah, I love stories like that.

And the Mean Season, if I remember correctly, because I used to have friends that lived in that part of the country when I was in college.

And it's.

I think it was when the storm would roll in, it would be like those really miserable thunderstorms and you think, oh, good, it's gonna crack the heat and it's gonna cool off.

But what happens is it just saturated and made it worse and it never got cooler and so the nights were miserable.

Isn't that, that is absolutely, absolutely the way it is.

And you know, without being too political here, climate change has made it worse.

What?

Wait.

Yeah, yeah, no, my, my, my son and daughter in law live in, in Miami and it was, you know, the heat index index was well over 100 in May.

Yeah.

You know, so, I mean, you know, so there you have it.

Yeah.

My parents in law live in south beach and they're always talking about every time I go down the Mosqu, some reason love me, they eat me up like mad.

And then the, the, the water downtown, the, the water table is rising.

So downtown loves to have a little bit of flooding from time to time.

And we had this running joke of, you know, if you can't afford beachfront property, just, just wait a few months, years, because if you're just inside of town, you, you'll, you'll have it.

They.

A couple of years ago, during one of the big storms, you know, water was washing up onto Biscayne Boulevard in downtown Miami.

And, you know, it's a big shark there, just sitting, you know, on the, on the road.

But, but, you know, but that's sort of typical.

I mean, Florida in general, just when you think it can't get crazier, trust me, it does.

In the writing point of view, you had to be careful, you know, because the real reality in, in South Florida was so bizarre, you know, that, you know, you would try to write some of those, if you tried to write those sequences into a novel, you know, all your, the readers would out.

Oh, don't be ridiculous.

That could never happen.

You know, but it did.

And some of that was called Miami Vice.

Yeah, exactly.

My favorite Miami Vice story.

This is a very simple one, you know, Michael Mann, you know, the first year, you know, they had a Ferrari, right, that Don Johnson, you know, would drive around it.

And the first year, they didn't think the show was going to be a hit, so they got one of those kits, you know, it was a Corvette underneath and just a Ferrari body put on top.

Very cheap, right?

Yeah.

The second year, Don Johnson goes real Ferrari, you know, and so, I mean, that's Hollywood, right?

Yes.

I can hear those drums that start the soundtrack and I see those graphics and the pink flamingos like it was yesterday.

And that was.

Oh, my goodness.

How many is that?

40.

Oh, it's got to be 40 years ago.

Oh, my God.

Mid 80s, I think.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Michael Mann knew a few things about entertainment.

Yeah.

He didn't.

Well, I.

One of the film, you know, directors and producers that I truly admire.

And you know that after Miami Vice, the first.

Well, the first show happened, you could not go into a store in Miami and buy an unreconstructed linen suit anywhere.

I mean, every drug dealer in town said, I've got to have that.

Right.

And they were off the every shelf.

Right.

The.

The world of pastels.

Yeah.

And.

And yes, and kudos to Michael Mann because there's a cat who is still swinging for the fence every time I turn around.

I mean, Heat two this last year.

I mean, good.

Yes.

All right.

I feel like I'm drifting, but you're so engaging.

For folks who don't know who.

What lineage from which you come.

I want to ask what it was like growing up in the shadow of your father.

As we, some of us know, former U.S.

attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach.

I mean, I was reading Getting Caught up and boy, talking about a guy who had history.

He, he was like on the front row of history for decades.

When you're growing up in a family like that, you're sort of not really aware of at all.

Sure.

Although, if you look behind me, you can see the 1964 Bob Kennedy for Senate, you know, bumper sticker that I found in my father's effects when he, you know, there were so many interesting moments in that, you know, in that era.

But the, the thing that you would take away from it is, and that I did as a growing up was how much they were government was there to do good and how they were all striving to improve, you know, so much of life and that.

And in particular, I mean, you think of it, my father's most famous moment was, you know, confronting George Wallace in the famous schoolhouse door.

Here's the funny story about that.

My dad was, you know, fit and six two, and Wallace was a pipsqueak and five, seven and a half.

And I said to him, I said, dad, you know, why didn't you just grab him and, you know, move him out of the way like that?

And my father said, well, what you can't see in the pictures is that there are about four or five, six foot, five inch Alabama state troopers right behind him.

And, you know, I didn't think they'd like me grabbing their governor.

So I, you know, that made some sense, I guess.

Yeah, it was.

The interesting thing about growing up then was There was so much passion involved.

Yeah.

In, in that era because we went from, we went from that into Vietnam, into the civil rights, you know, movement, into, into so much stuff.

And it was, it was a fascinating time to be young just to make this all about me again.

Please do it.

Was it when I came to writing Hearts War, the.

Which was the novel based on my, my father's experiences in World War II, that was where I really sort of learned about why he did the things he did when he was in government.

Does that make sense to you?

It makes total sense.

And I was just letting that sink in.

I was thinking he did so much during his career and I thought when I read this, I'm like, how powerful that not only did your father leave a legacy that he did, but, but that you had an opportunity to form an entire novel about him in dedication to him, so to speak, and then to have that on the silver screen.

Just a double, triple whammy.

Yes, it was.

Here's a story that you'll like about this.

The studio flew my father, myself and my then 18, 19 year old son over to Prague where they were filming the movie.

They were very, you know, thoughtful about everything they did.

But at one point early in our visit over there, they took my father and myself and my son into a little screening room.

And there's Bruce Willis is there and Colin Farrell is there and the director is there and the producers are there and they said, we want to show you a sequence.

And so I said, great to see everything, right?

So they showed us a sequence in a boxcar.

Suddenly there are two P51 Mustangs come flying over and they're just strafing the hell out of this boxcar.

And they get out and there's this incredibly dramatic scene where Linus Roche, who's a wonderful actor, helps organize the men and they form a POW by the side.

All these American soldiers sitting there like that.

And, and so the plane, the two P51s go zooming over and, you know, wave their wings and stop shooting.

I mean, it's just, they're just blowing the hell out of everything, which is what Hollywood does.

Sure.

Better than anywhere, right.

You know, and anyway, so they show us this sequence and they're all sort of sitting there and they say, what did I, what did we think of it?

Sure.

And I said, I said, well, I thought that was pretty darn cool, you know, I mean, you know, I like explosions and I like airplanes and whatnot.

And my father is sitting there and he says, he says in his Very quiet voice.

He says, well, he said, he said that was very dramatic.

And he said, that's exactly what it's like to be in a boxcar when you suddenly get strafed by your own gods.

There's silence in the room.

And I turned to my father and I said, I said, you had never said to me that that happened to you.

And he said, yes, in our case, it wasn't Mustangs, it was P38s that came over.

And it's the same thing.

The guy got out and opened the doors and we were able to get away like that.

But, you know, you're in this boxcar and there are people, guys dying right and left, right around you, whatnot.

So this is, this is your classic Hollywood moment.

Yeah.

The producer, the director, the stars, they're all, you know, they're trying to be respectful of the fact that here my father had been in this moment where people died right next to him.

But on the other hand, they got it right.

And so, so there was a lot of very self congratulatory, you know.

Oh, yeah, this, you know, thumbs up kind of thing and whatnot, because the old guy said they got it right.

And I think that it was, it was interesting for me because I was looking at him and seeing the emotion of that moment on his face in contrast to the fact that, you know, the.

All the stars and the, you know, the producers and everybody were overjoyed.

Yeah.

You know, this was a memory for him that was very different.

What a dichotomy of emotions.

Yeah, they're.

They're thrilled that they got it right.

And he's like, yeah, I wish you could have been there because it was exactly.

David.

Absolutely.

You know, or actually it would have been.

You know, you're lucky you weren't there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And speaking of lucky you're not there.

I was reading other.

Also that you're father was pow.

And wasn't he in the camp that they based the movie the Great Escape on that whole.

Yes.

And in fact, in fact, I asked him about that and I said, did he think about joining the group that was going to go out?

And he said he was given the option because he was a longtime prisoner.

Yeah.

And he turned it down.

And because he just, he didn't really have confidence that they would, anybody would get away.

You know, he's like everybody, he acted as a lookout.

And as you know, in the Great Escape, the movie is quite accurate.

All those guys got shot.

Yeah.

You know, the only inaccurate part of that movie is of course, the best part is Steve McQueen jumping the fences on the motorcycle, doing his own stunts.

I knew you were going to say that.

What an actor.

I mean, God, compelling.

Who doesn't love him?

Yeah, exactly.

Golly.

Don't, don't even let your classmate Don Winslow get started about his man Crush on Steve McQueen.

No, Don.

Don and I, we like to have dinner every so often.

And, you know, all I have to do is sort of say Steve McQueen, and he, he melts into this puddle of admiration and love.

Right.

Yes.

So, I mean, yeah, I mean, there's.

There'S a couple of guys throughout history in our age group that we have that affinity for it probably, you know, Robert Redford, especially during the all the President's Men.

Steve McQueen during Great Escape or Bullet, for crying out loud.

Oh, God, yes.

Yeah, don't.

And don't even get us started about Bullet, because we'll start talking about the car and the chase in San Francisco and.

Yeah, second best car chase scene ever.

Yeah.

And what would be the first?

The French Connection.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Down through the Gene Hackman, you know, on the horn like that.

Oh, my God, that was.

I'm convinced.

If you want to.

Ladies, if you want to really please your man, get him a weekend full of movies that involve at least a good car chase and a good gun battle.

And I'm thinking of, like, the car chase and French Connection or Bullet, and maybe speaking of Michael Mann gun battle, like Heat, for instance.

You can't beat any of those.

No, that sequence where the automatic weapons and, you know, on the street in la, I, of course, now assume that that's.

Every day in Los Angeles is like that.

But, you know, from my perspective as a novelist is when you see sequences like that, you know, how brilliantly conceived they are.

And it's not merely the action, but it is that the underlying psychology of the moment is spot on.

Yeah.

And in a way, I, you know, I think that you try to bring those, those almost cinematic qualities to Prose in, you know, in a thriller.

And I, I think that that oftentimes, if you're successful, that, you know, you create the same excitement for people as both a reader or a viewer in a movie.

Yeah.

Does that make some sense to you?

It makes total sense.

And, and, and while you were saying that, I, I, I was 100% with you, but I also was sitting there going, man, think about all those scenes that were reflective of the time and the cause.

And I, I saw a movie not that long ago that I have now seen too many Times.

And if you haven't seen it and you want to see a good gun battle plus a great story that is intricately woven.

It is Den of Thieves.

Yes.

Boy.

Yes.

They're at the end when they're.

They're locked in a traffic jam and they pull out all their.

Again, psych.

Psychologically sound.

Exactly.

Because you know, you're coming up there and you realize that.

That you know, all hell's about to break loose, but everybody around you is totally innocent.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, and I mean that was.

Yeah, that was a.

That.

I agree.

I mean, I think that movie had some other flaws, but that was.

You're right.

Quite right.

That's a terrific, terrific sequence.

Yeah.

And John, I hate to break this to you, but there's no perfect movie.

Well, maybe there is, but.

And before we.

We're going to take a short break in just a second, but I want to.

Since we're still on movies and there's.

There's three movies that you.

That you had your books turned into when you covered the Mean Season and Hearts War.

But there was one right in between.

There, There again, about.

I want to say mid to late 80s just cause with Sean Connory and Lawrence Fishburne, which.

Another fabulous movie.

Everybody always mentions Connery and Fishburne, but it's Ed Harris.

Oh God.

Who plays that.

The, you know, Blair Sullivan, the serial killer in prison.

His performance slightly over the top, but unbelievably wonderful.

But you know what?

I don't mind over the top from Ed Harris because that was such a wicked cool bad guy.

Yes.

You know, and this was.

This was not while I'm thinking of other really good bad guys, but that.

You're right.

I apologize for not bringing him up in between Sean and Lawrence, but I'm like, Ed, he.

You.

He just ate up the scenery in a good way.

The most famous scene where he talks about how powerful he is was virtually taken word for word from the book.

Nice.

And it was one of the sequences that I was always most proud of.

It underscores true evil and a bit of crazy, but also a bit of non crazy too in the world of thrillers.

And this is true for film and writing.

It is about.

There is a kind of obligation to accuracy and not accuracy in the way that a journalist sees it, but accuracy in the way that almost that a psychologist sees it.

I keep saying that, but that's.

That's the.

You know, you have to hit the right emotional chords because that's what makes a shootout work.

A sense of validity.

So that it's real, so it's believable.

So, you know, the stakes and the premise and the meaning and the heart behind it all, it all has.

You can't just the random.

Shoot them up, bang, bang.

I don't want to offend anyone who loves John Wick, and I love me some John Wick, but, you know, when you.

By the time you got to number four, you're just like, jesus.

Really?

No one in all that time managed a headshot, you know?

Yeah.

I mean, there's 37 guys coming at him with automatic rifles with other friends.

Of mine who are writers, who I will laugh about.

About automatic weapons.

Yeah.

And if you talk to a military guy, you know, they'll talk, you know, in autumn, with automatic weapons, you can't really roll out of the way and then fire your 9 millimeter at, you know, pistol and shoot some guy, because basically you're in pieces.

Right.

Because that uzi or that AR15 has just, you know, just done everything, you know?

So, I mean, John, I say this.

To my wife every single time.

And, you know, right in the middle of one of those scenes that you just described, I'm sitting there going, wait, what?

And she looks over at me like, it's movies.

Let it go.

But I'm like, look.

And he rolls and he spins and he stands up with a single shot, and he gets the guy in a.

Anyway, and it's why we go to movies.

All right, look, we're gonna have to take a short break so that our sponsor gets to say a little something for us.

But when we come back with John, we're going to be talking about, of course, Jack's Boys.

So don't move.

We'll be right back.

And we are back with John Katzenbach, and we're talking about Jack's Boys.

Thank you for.

For staying with us, and welcome back, John.

Thank you.

I hope this is the compliment that I think it is, because as I was reading this, and I don't.

I don't generally like to compare people because that makes me feel like I'm saying to you, oh, you remind me of blank.

As though that that person was first and.

And you're not your unique self, but as I was.

So I'm gonna.

All that tea up really ruined it, didn't it?

But Stephen King comes to mind.

I hope that's a compliment.

I actually admire King a lot.

I'm less fond of his horror books, but when he writes Crime and Punishment, he's very, very together on this.

Think of Misery and The wonderful conceit in Misery is there's this guy being sort of cut up and tortured by Annie Wilkes, and he's writing and he realized it's pretty good.

He thinks, I'm going to keep at it.

This is good.

Which is very much like any writer.

Go ahead, cut off my arm.

But, hey, this is good.

I think that it's funny for me.

I get compared.

You get compared to a lot of people in your career.

And if we were doing this in Spanish and this was in Latin America, they would be talking about Gabriel Garcia Marquez and me or Carlos Fuentes.

If we were doing this in Germany, it would probably be Sebastian Fitzik, who's a wonderful writer, you know.

So, I mean, I.

I like to think that in the world of thrillers that I try to stand alone, you know, and, and in, in Jack's Boys, the fact of the matter is, is when you get right down to it, what is a thriller, a modern American thriller, you try to find a nightmare that has a certain commonality.

Right.

And you weave your characters into that.

And in Jack's Boys, very simply, you know, it's.

You think of having teenagers and what are they doing when you're not watching.

Yeah, and that was the.

That was the sort of impetus for that book.

And, you know, this will.

This will really sound sick and twisted, which is my normal state.

But I was, when I came up with the.

The idea of the, you know, the group of serial killers and then these teenagers that insult them, I really literally got up, walked around the room and was sort of going, yes, yes, yes, that works, you know, because that's what teenagers do and that's what serial killers do.

Absolutely.

I did mean that as a compliment.

So please don't take it in any other way.

And so, second of all, it is thoroughly original, so kudos to that.

And in the last point is, and I was doing some research, it seems as though, I mean, you're very popular here, but you mentioned Spanish and German, for instance, and you're.

You're killing it in those markets overseas.

David, I wish, you know, when I was growing up, it never occurred to me that I might want to be a cult hero, you know, in Latin America, you know, or in parts of Europe.

And there are a number of other writers who have had, you know, similar experiences.

And I think it comes as a surprise to all of us.

I think it reflects that different cultures, certainly Germany, as opposed to Argentina, as opposed to Chile, as opposed to Mexico, as opposed to England, you know, they all have different ways of looking at books and stories that come out of their own cultures.

But if you happen to sort of fit into what they imagine a book should be, you explode in these areas.

And I'm very grateful, frankly.

I mean, it's immense fun, let me say, to go to a, you know, of either Latin America or Europe and.

And contrast the way people read a thriller with the way they do here in the United States.

And that was.

My next question is like, can you describe for me the difference between, say, rolling into a Barnes and Nobles or a poison pen, for instance, in the States, and doing the same thing in South America, for instance?

What.

What is.

How.

How do the reactions of the audience difference?

Let me.

The simplest way to put it is that in Latin America, for example, it's all about character.

I think in the United States, people are drawn to plot.

Does that.

And the way here we seem to like the interaction.

This gets highly technical.

I love it.

Keep going.

The interaction between characters and that overarching plot that they fit into.

I mean, you know, you mentioned Don Winslow.

He's a great example of how those characters sort of blend into a plot that is rich with detail, 100%.

And I think that that is.

I find that in Latin America, in.

If I go to Europe, the attitudes are a little different.

They always seem to be interested in the richness of character.

They truly want to know why everybody does something.

Let me give you a good example of that.

Please do.

And it's a wonderful, wonderful book.

Smila's Sense of Snow.

Okay.

And if you go back to, you know, how Peter Hoag invented that story, it's all about who that person is.

And I, you know, I'm rambling on here.

I, you know, like that.

But it.

It's so, like I say, it's very different.

And one of the more interesting things is that you get different questions in every country.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I bet.

Mexico.

The questions in Mexico are not going to be the same as Argentina, and they sure as heck aren't going to be the same as Germany.

Oh, my God, I would love to be a fly on the wall to hear the difference, because, you know, we get in this little groove in our head.

Oh.

You know, and it's.

It's just kind of systematically the same.

But to step into a different culture and go, let's look at this story and this whole scene through their eyes.

Yeah, it's very.

And I think that also one of the things that's extremely interesting for me as an author is to see, you know, what age groups are attracted to a story, right.

In Latin America, for example, Jack's Boys, which is already out down there, number one bestseller.

And it was.

I mean, I can't tell you the number of college age men and women who embrace that story.

Wow.

And then, you know, but on some of my prior books, you know, you go to a thing in Germany and everybody there is, you know, 40 to 60 years old.

I mean, and, you know, there's not a.

Not a young person in the audience.

I mean, you know, and don't ask me to explain why this phenomena exists.

I have no idea.

John, why does this phenomena exist?

Well, let me answer that, David.

But, you know, it makes sense since this deals with technology, dark web, etc.

It makes sense that a younger crowd may be predisposed toward that.

Plus, I mean, I, for instance, I.

I'm fascinated by the dark web.

So for whatever reason, and so maybe therein lies some of the equations.

Some of it also may be the sensibilities or rather the, the mindset of these characters in and of themselves.

I mean, you know.

Well, one of the, one of the great challenges for me in writing Jack's Boys was that I had to endow, you know, Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, and Easy with different.

Not just different crime patterns, but different personalities completely so that they would mesh together.

And, you know, when I sort of came up with them, I thought, this is great.

And then I realized I had really set myself a profoundly, you know, difficult writing challenge, one that I truly, you know, embraced.

It was, you know, great fun for me ultimately to do.

Well, it was neat, too.

Like, when you're mentioning Charlie, all you got to do is mention Charlie.

And I know instantly kind of his mindset set and his vernacular and his crime passion.

And then you mentioned Easy, and you, you, you instantly kick into, like, any, like any particular character.

So I always love that.

One of the things I was most fascinated with, and for some reason I really loved it, is the, not only the ongoing social commentary, but it's the constant film and popular song references.

I just love that for some reason.

Yeah.

Well, I'm glad.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I really make an effort to put those in.

And apropos of that, I was once giving a speech, I think this was In Bogota, about 600 people in the audience, right?

And at the end, you know, Q and A at the end, I said, wait a second.

I said, on a show of hands here, you know, when I put in a musical reference, who listens to that?

And two thirds of the hands went up.

And because you know, what it does is.

Or a literary reference, it evokes something for you, a memory.

And so I, you know, I really like doing that.

I'm about to redo my website and I'm going to put in a whole.

I'm going to go back over my books and find and make a playlist of all of the musical references that I put in.

Please do.

I think that would be so awesome.

And if you want to take it one step further in that playlist, just hook it up to Spotify so that anybody who goes to your website can sit there and listen to the entire soundtrack.

And I'll tell you, I want to.

I want to jump on something that you just said.

And this is exactly why I love the references.

You'd mention a song, it wouldn't take me out of the story.

That's the beautiful thing.

I wasn't distracted by that.

I just simply, with my other half of my brain, reached in and remembered the emotion that I was feeling during that time in history.

And it was just a great little way to add a spice to the scene.

David, thank you so much.

Because that is.

That's so reassuring to hear because that's precisely why those things go in there.

You know, you can't stop somebody from reading because that defeats the whole point of writing in the first place.

But you want to evoke something inside them.

And when you accomplish that, when you, you know, and I don't ever pretend to think that it.

Every time, that it'll.

It'll all work, you know, because there's got to be some times.

And you go, you know, who's that?

Right?

You know, But I mean, you know, it's.

Go ahead.

I was going to say, going back to an earlier comment that we made about trusting your audience, if, if the.

If I'm a reader and I'm not picking up that song or I don't remember that film reference, that's okay.

I'll just let it slide by because I'm still so engrossed in the story, it won't distract me.

However, conversely, as I just said, if all of a sudden it brings up a song, oh, man, that school.

I remember my buds and I would sit around, listen to that song, and it gave you that emotion, but you kept going.

And the same with the films.

Look how we.

You have.

You and I have been talking for about 55 minutes, and we've mentioned three, four, five, six, at least six or seven films.

And I bet you dollars of donuts that in that conversation you pulled something could have been French Connection or Bullet or whatever.

And you remembered the time.

You remember the feel of that era.

There's going to be some kind of a visceral clue, a cue that hits you that you go, oh, man.

But you're still in the story and you're still moving along.

But it's references.

It's just.

David, I think you're 1,000% right on this, because what happens is, I think that it triggers something inside.

And if it's not a reference that you're familiar with, in other words, okay, I've never heard St.

Stephen by the Grateful Dead, you know, so you just zoom right by it, and maybe I'll go back and check it.

But if you, you know, you hear all along the Watchtower by Jimi Hendrix, you can.

And you remember that was playing, you know, in the bar the night I had to slug that guy.

Yes.

And, you know, it.

It all.

It has a.

It has an impact.

I mean, come on, think about it, John.

The things that.

That trigger memories.

It's.

One of the best compliments I can pay you is the fact that I would.

I can enjoy your story.

I can be distracted from the everyday that we're all entangled in, but I can be reminded of these songs I haven't thought about for a while, or a movie reference I haven't thought about.

And it really does make the whole experience fuller.

Well, thank you.

Yeah.

Thank you.

I mean, damn it.

That's what we're trying to do.

Yeah, exactly.

Well, I was going to say, it's.

Like icing on the cake.

I.

I want to ask you this one thing as we start to wrap up, because I know you.

You got plenty of stuff you need to be doing when you're writing.

And specifically in the case of Jack's Boys, is there a message or a meaning or a feeling you hope your readers take away, or do you find.

You know what?

I'm just aiming for pure entertainment.

So, you know, if you.

If you take something away, great.

If not, you're just being entertained for 600 pages.

That's good, too.

Let me answer that difficult question.

The fact.

Let me.

The second part.

Okay.

If readers don't take anything away and just enjoy the story and whatnot, that's fine.

I'm okay with that.

But the fact of the matter is, yes, I want to make some social commentary.

I want to engage people in a world that has some meaning.

And if they dive into that and that becomes.

It speaks to them, I'm even happier.

So basically, I'm okay With either, I prefer the first, but the second is definitely.

Okay.

Very, very emotionally, psychologically difficult question.

You should ask that of every damn author that shows up on your show.

Consider it done, sir.

All right.

Well, as we start to wrap, I have a standard close that I like to finish with because so many of my listeners come to me for this.

They love hearing authors like you, of your stature, and they love to hear.

Oh, if.

If I could hear one piece of writing advice from John, this is what they tune in for.

If you've la.

If you've lasted this long in the show, I know that you're hanging out to find out this.

I mean, and with your.

What are we at?

15.

This is 15 books now, right.

It's some embarrassingly large, large number, but it's not.

It's not like my friend Larry Block, who's got five zillion, but, you know.

Right.

So, I mean, Larry's been at it a long time.

Yeah.

We could spend a half hour on Larry.

I love Lawrence Block.

Totally admirable.

The piece of the piece.

Only piece of advice that I like to.

I give many pieces of advice to writers, not the least of which is, are you capable of sitting by yourself alone in a room for a year, you know, with the characters that you've invented?

But I think the most important thing that I always say to people is have confidence in your own story.

Don't think that the way anyone else would do it is right.

You're going to be happier with telling whatever story you want your way and embrace that and stick with it.

You know, whether you sell, you know, zero copies or, you know, a zillion, you're going to be happier telling the story your own way.

Of course, the other thing I always say is you should always read the first chapter of Don Winslow's Savages because it's perfect.

Oh, man, I wish it was within arm reach.

I have every one of his books, in case you didn't know that.

And I am with you.

Boy, that.

That's all one of my all time favorites.

And that first chapter, nothing like it, right?

Nothing like it the first time I read it.

And people will go look at it now and think, this is ridiculous.

And then I looked at it and said, no, it's not.

Yeah.

David, there are so many writers that I admire.

Here's the one dirty little, little secret that I'll add to this conversation.

I very rarely now read anything in my own genre.

Oh, why is that?

I read my friends and the guys I really admire.

But we live in such a litiginous world, I just don't want something.

I mean, I think there's a lot of really brilliant writing out there, and I don't want somebody else's brilliance to creep into my dark soul and land on a page of a book.

Fortunately, I get to read a whole lot of books for this show.

And I get what you're saying, and I understand that, and I appreciate it.

And then I think I'm going to go back to our mutual pal Don.

And then.

And I heard Don said this to me once about an author that he really likes, and that author is.

I rearranged my office, so I don't know where I put that book.

I can see the title.

Russo.

Richard Russo.

Richard Russo.

Thank you.

He goes, when I read Rousseau, I go, what am I doing?

I need to just quit right now.

And I want to say, every time I read Don Winslow, I go, I can't.

I can't top this, David.

My.

My experience like that was when I read Jim Harrison's Legends of the Fall.

Oh, yeah.

And I thought, I can't do that.

I mean, you know, and Harrison, bless his heart, passed away.

He was a wonderfully lovely guy.

But I thought to write that whole book with a whole novella without hardly any dialogue or it was so brilliantly done.

So I almost gave up.

That was when I almost said, wrap it up.

Get a job writing editorials at a newspaper.

But, John, let me circle back to what piece of writing advice you just gave me and my listeners is write your own story and be happy with that and be good with that.

And I think about.

I'm reading a book by Rick Rubin, and in his book about creativity, Rick Rubin, the music producer.

I hope to get him on my podcast one day because he's just fascinating.

But he said, you want to take the pressure off of yourself.

You know, you get all wrapped up in querying and all this stuff.

How about just saying, hey, I'm going to write this book from me.

I'm going to write it so that I'm happy and I'm pleased.

I'm going to treat it almost like a journal entry, which is just for me, and if at the end I'm finished with it and I feel good about it and I pass it off to somebody and they like it, great.

But if not, I'm not going to put that pressure on myself.

And, boy, has that just released something in my brain, David.

That's what really.

I obviously subscribe to that.

I just would sort of suggest that that's just a different kind of pressure.

Yeah.

You know.

Well, folks, if you want to learn more, visit Jon Katzenbach.com and of course, the book is Jack's Boys, and it'll come out tomorrow.

John, this has been.

I cannot express to you how thoroughly enjoyable and how honored I am that you took time to spend it with me.

The.

The honor's mine, David.

And thoroughly, you know, I thoroughly enjoyed this.

And frankly, you only pierced my heart with a couple of questions, you know, so, I mean, you know, you made me squirm slightly.

You know, I.

You know, I'm good at not indicating that I'm squirming.

I know your secret safe with me.

Listen, just the fact that I got to.

I mean, you're a legend in so many ways, and just the fact that you took time to talk to me, I'm very grateful.

And your book is fun.

It's good.

It's.

It's.

It's unnerving.

It's all the things that you want in a thriller and a mystery and a suspense.

So I hope you'll come back again sometime soon, sit down and write another book.

Yeah, I mean, it's easy peasy.

Only takes a year.

Exactly.

What else have I got to do with my time, right?

Oh, so good.

Thank you again.

All right, thank you.

Now stand by for show two and our Memorial Day thriller double shot on the Thriller Zone.

Hey, Matthew.

I can call you Matt Quirk.

Welcome to the Thriller zone.

Thanks for having me.

It's great to be here.

Now, I like the fact that you are such a meticulous attention to detail guy.

You got the post a movie post a TV poster behind you.

You got the.

The book placed.

I mean, this is not your first rodeo, is it?

It's a Potemkin village back there.

Because I'm in a corner of the bedroom I've, like, mucked up, and then I see these authors and they have these ego walls that you could die for.

And.

And I just.

Fortunately, I stole a poster from the premiere and I still have an arc left.

I gave the rest away, and the.

The shoe box it's perched upon hasn't fallen over.

So.

Thank you, and I'm glad, but this is nothing.

This is plaster and lighting.

Yeah, Well, I want you to know that the little view that you have is very beautifully handsomely articulated.

However, if I spun the camera a little bit over, it is a disaster zone with piles of books on the floor and maybe some underwear, too, but we'll keep that to ourselves.

And I like to joke about the, the Zoom Dicky.

That this is just, it's better with a collar shirt that this just cuts off here and then I'm in some Bermuda shorts or something.

I'm not even believing the Bermuda shorts, tell you the truth.

Yeah.

And by the way, Dicky, there's, there's a poll from the past.

Did you ever own a Dicky Dickies anymore?

And I, I, I think it's a funny bit in the Zoom era, but I also, you know, it doesn't sound, you don't want to say, you know, I, I had my Dicky on the Zoom because, you know, let's see.

End of your career.

For those of you who do not know what a Dickie is, and I had him back in high school.

It's a mock.

It's a turtleneck that has, that's sewn to a little flap, and the flap will go here, and the other flap is on the back so you can put it underneath the shirt so you can look like you're wearing a turtle, turtleneck and a shirt, but you're not super hot.

And they do sell a Zoom Dicky.

I looked this up, and it's just a collared shirt that you can wear under a sweater or if you get your camera right, you can only wear that part.

And that's my sort of icebreaker.

Zoom joke.

The Zoom Dicky.

The Zoom Dicky.

Yeah.

Now, if I go down the hall a few minutes after the show and I say, hey, honey, can.

Can you want to see my new Zoom Dicky?

She's gonna go, no, no, no, no.

Know.

Yeah, honey, I'm on my own.

Zoom call.

Yeah, I'm on my own.

Make sure that it's very clear what you're talking about.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, it is a pleasure to meet you.

I did learn very recently that you and I are inside.

We're not the same zip code, but we're in the same city per se.

I'm in Encinitas, and you're in San Diego.

Ocean Beach.

Point Loma.

Yeah.

Neighborhood.

Well, in the fifth season, coming up in July, the Thriller Zone is going to be going on location and doing more face to face.

So we somehow missed that, this time with communication faux pas.

But we will do that in the next book.

How about that?

That sounds fantastic because you're in a gorgeous part of town.

As are you.

It is pretty sweet.

But that's San Diego.

Yeah.

You could fall off a truck and you're like, oh, it's beautiful here.

It is true.

We're exactly one mile from the beach.

I'm actually reading my.

A project that I'm working on yesterday, overlooking Swamis, which is a famous little surfing spot.

And as you can see, because of little sun, it's just.

It's perfect every day.

It's pretty silly.

All right, the book is Inside Threat.

We're going to be talking about this in great detail.

It is a riveting read.

And, boy, you.

You know, I was gonna.

I was thinking back when we're getting ready to go on the show, and I'm like, what was the first book?

I've only.

This is only the second book of yours that I read.

The first one was Hour of the Assassin.

And I ran across that, I want to say, two or three years ago, and it was Nick Averose, Special Agent, Secret Service.

Wow.

That was one of my favorite books because.

Cause that thing flew.

By the way, what was your secret there?

Well, the secret was.

That was.

That was a rewrite.

And it's always funny because when I look back on it, it's.

It seems like one of these, like, meticulously planned, clean, lean books.

But I had to rewrite the whole thing in 90 days with kind of a new plot, and.

And then I came up for error, the end, because it was 90 days straight and I never worked so hard on anything in my life.

And I came up and I'm like, I know I've been in so deep.

I just hope this is any good.

And then said, oh, this is great.

And then, you know, when I look back at it now, it just seems like this nice, like, concept that sort of is like.

I'll say it again, like, clean and lean, you know, and.

Right.

And look at the actual gestation of that book.

It was.

It was this crazy process of tearing out the whole pot and putting in a new one.

So you never really know what goes into something and kind of what comes out at the end or what will make a good book.

Because when I was in the middle of that rewrite, I was like, oh, this is a disaster.

Everything's falling apart.

And then I came up and I said, this is great.

And I was like, okay.

Okay, great.

Yeah.

Isn't it funny, Matt, what.

What we say as writers in those quiet moments to ourselves as we're crafting in the.

In the wee, small hours of the morning.

Thank you, Frank Sinatra.

And you're just doing that work and you're.

You could be a third, a half.

You could be three quarters the way through and just have that little voice on your shoulder go, you know, this really kind of sucks.

Oh, yeah.

And how you have to go, hey, wait a minute, I wasn't talking to you.

Get away.

I mean, it's, it's a challenge, isn't it?

Yeah.

And I mean, it's a funny job where you just factor in one or two.

All is lost moments in each book.

Not in.

Because that's like a screenwriting term, you know, not in the action of the book, but in your life as you write the book.

There's going to be a moment where you're like, this book doesn't work right.

You know, and it's funny to see people like, like Harlan Coban, who's like so incredible, so successful and you know, you read his interviews and he's like, oh, yeah, I go through hell on each book.

Or, or Daniel Silva, who's a master.

And I was reading one of his books and he's like, I had to completely rewrite this book and I didn't know I'd get it in time.

So it's, it's a, it's a ride.

I first heard, I heard it recently.

Who was I on with?

Bob Degoni.

And Bob has written a staff of paper and I.

He made a comment that.

Oh, yeah, Dave, it's, it's, it's nerve wracking.

I, I almost hate everyone.

I'm like, bob, are you kidding me?

He goes, yeah, yeah, every single solitary one.

And I thought, what is that about us?

Do we not.

Have we not given ourselves permission?

Do we not think we're good enough?

I mean, it's, it's a crazy mindset.

Well, it's just, it's really subjective, you know, so there's times where I'll outline a book and then give it to the editor and they're like, well, it didn't work, you know, And I'll say, well, that was the outline.

So it's, it's such an execution dependent, subjective thing.

And it's such a crazy job where I was very successful with the first book, Very fortunate.

And then I went to write the second book and I assumed that they would say, like, give us an outline and we'll kind of check in and make sure everything's moving along.

Like, you know, I would have a job almost because they had a lot invested in the second book and they're just like, we'll see you next year with a book.

I hope it's good.

They weren't that like, brusque about it, but that was effectively what was going on.

And I thought, I'm just Gonna go off and hope that in sitting and playing make believe by myself in a room for a year, I come up with something stellar.

So it's, it's, it's a crazy journey.

In each book while we're on this topic.

And you're going to have great insight to this, I can already tell.

So I'm thinking to myself, what if you handed it to your editor?

And the editor goes, you know, I don't feel it.

And okay, let me get back to you.

That night, you're having dinner with a friend who happens to be another editor, and you're just, I don't think this would ever happen.

And you go, here, take a look.

Oh, yeah, you know, I got some time.

And they loved it.

What would that do to your head?

Oh, well, that, I mean, that can happen because I have like beta readers and I have an incredible agent who was an editor.

And so when everybody says it stinks in the same way, that's great.

You're like, oh, okay, I'll fix that.

But when you have the really brain breaking thing is what?

When two people tell you different things and they're people whom you trust, which I've had happen.

But that's, I mean, that's why I'm the president, secretary, treasurer, and board of Rough Draft Inc.

Here.

Like, you know, at the end of the day I have to.

That's actually true because I have a blown out.

But at the end of the day, like, you have to decide what's good.

Do you actually own Rough Draft?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And when I do, like, paperwork stuff, I have to be like a check to myself signed by the president myself, seconded by the treasurer myself.

Hey, and do you ever, do you ever walk to your office and knock on the door and then sit down, said, come in, and then turn back and go, hey, listen, you shorted me on this check.

Yeah, I fire myself periodically.

As you should.

All right, well, before we cover Inside Threat, which we're going to deal into, I want to know about and, and, and I want to do this because I think it's so cool you have a smash television series on your hands right now.

So for those who maybe have been living in a cave and you don't know what the night Agent is, I want to play, if I may, a trailer from that.

Hello?

This runs deeper than you realize.

And.

Farther than you can imagine.

This particular show has everything.

And I love the setup.

Like when the guy's on the phone, you know, here he is just toiling away.

I'm down here in the basement.

Oh, brother.

And all of a sudden the phone rings.

Well, that doesn't happen.

And let the games begin, by the way.

So big kudos to landing this gig.

This what a what?

Yeah, huge, huge thing.

I want to know, how in the wide world of thrillers did you land this gig?

Were you just walking along one day and said, oh, look, here's the book.

And somebody just comes up and go, hey, this make a really great series.

I mean, tell me that process because I'm so curious.

Yeah, I mean, I will back up a little bit to address something you said, which is like that phone call that was the whole book, just the hook, you know, because I had a friend who had a night watch job and I imagined him sitting by a phone all night that never rings.

And one day he rings and it's like crazy.

And.

And then I, you know, I talked about it with writer friends and then I talked about it.

I used it to get a new agent.

And.

And then they all said, go.

And I said, great.

And I sat down and I said, well, then what happens?

You know?

So, you know, I just had the hook.

And then I had to find out, like, well, is the government really going to pay someone to sit by a phone?

And then, you know, and then you're just off to the races of writing a book.

The experience, it was a little bit like you discussed of, you know, I write the book and then it goes to a film agent.

And what I found is, you want a film agent.

The really good ones, they only talk when something really substantive is happening.

So, you know, if somebody's like, hey, I got Francis Ford Coppola's cousin to read it, you're like, oh, oh.

And then you, you know, and then you have Hollywood dreams.

And, you know, if they're like, or you want to adapt, you know, what is it they'll say, like, Winnie the Pooh is out of.

Is in public domain.

You want to rent a Winnie the Pooh crime thriller, you're like, great, you know, but.

And then you're running around with Hollywood dreams and it's terrible.

So it's good to have an agent who just calls you when something of substance happens.

Because the kind of name of the game is to not get distracted by shiny objects and to just sit down and write the books every, every day and stay hungry.

What you are able to do as a writer is try to get the best representation you can.

And I was really fortunate to have Dan Conaway as my agent.

And then Dan Conaway, through him and Writer's house.

We landed with a fellow named Will Watkins, who was at icm, which was really cool to be a part of there.

And they were acquired by caa.

So now he's a caa and he just really liked the books and I had never met him and he got 200 no's on the night agent.

So it was just a thing where he loved the books and I had never had dinner with him, I had never met him, I had never charmed him.

So the other aspect of this, like, from kind of like a craft advice, perspective thing is to just write the good book.

And what's really nice, and I talk about this in my author talks with people who want to get into publishing stuff is it's, it's actually, if you can believe it, got a huge meritocratic element to it because I was just like a laid off junior employee, junior reporter from the Atlantic when I got my first book.

And that got this crazy ride.

So it's, it's really cool.

And, and what I like about the way everything in the industry works through agents is you just go, right?

You don't have to be meeting everybody and taking people out to dinner and sending whiskey to everybody at the end of the year.

You know, you just, you just write and agents know everybody and they do that and you can just kind of focus, focus on your story.

So that's basically what happened.

This guy Will, my champion in Hollywood, basically.

He just kept taking it out, taking it out.

And then he connected with Jamie Vanderbilt, who wrote some great White House movies, some great other movies, and he loved it.

And then so a production company took it on Project X.

They were kind of brand new, but really well established, really talented people.

And I've had a stuff option before, so I was like, okay, not gonna get my hopes up, you know.

Right.

And, and then they said Sean Ryan from the Shield wanted, and other great shows, wanted to take it on and maybe turn it into a show.

And then I was like, okay, this seems to be like a big deal, but there's it, you never, you never get across the finish line.

And I've learned kind of the hard way, but it's a good lesson to never get your hopes up.

Never get too distracted.

And then they said, well, you know, Netflix picked it up from him.

And I said, okay, okay.

And I was like, really excited, but also just keeping everything in perspective.

And then when they finally tell you something's going to get made, you're like, huh?

But because, you know, you're like, it's Like Lucy with the football, nothing gets made.

So.

And there's always another hurdle.

But.

So I didn't really believe it until I started seeing snippets of video coming out from the set and then went to the set and saw, you know, Gabe kicking someone's ass.

And I'm like, oh, this is gonna be a real thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

When you have Gabe actually kicking said ass on a set, you got a pretty good idea the thing is rolling.

Yeah, yeah.

And he's very good at that.

Yeah, he is quite good.

Good looking guy dynamic.

Here's my, here's the second part of that question is how much involvement do you get on any kind of a daily basis?

Now I know there are some writers who go, they write it, they hand it off and that's it, nobody wants to see you again.

Or they're like, yeah, hey, just put the writer over there.

Other people, like, I, I got to see a Jack Carr with that Amazon project, really kind of get in and put his hand on the terminal list.

Even got a, a scene in, in the series.

And you know, so how much involvement do you have?

That's got to be cool.

Well, it's, I mean, it's up to what you want to do as a writer, so.

And I mean, within reason, right?

Because you can say, I want to write the screenplay and they'll say no.

So this was, this was kind of ideal because I also recently had my first child.

So I don't want to be like, living in Vancouver for four months and, you know, going to a writer's room for 12 hours a day for three months.

Although I, it's so cool and I love TV movies and I hope I get to do all that stuff someday, but it's just like not the time in my life now.

It's a time for balance.

So it worked out perfectly because, because once Shawn Ryan came on, it was such a thrill and a relief because I love Shawn Ryan's stuff.

I watch his stuff and I marvel at how he can just take these characters and set them in opposition based on kind of their character design and just keep the tension going in a show for six or seven years.

And I kind of study his stuff and I think that must be so hard to do.

And once he had, I said, oh, well, great.

I just want to make sure I don't get in the way of whatever you're doing here.

Right.

And.

And then we had.

He was so nice.

He sent me the script with this very gracious email and it was, it was uncanny.

To me, because he's.

He's such a great showrunner.

The idea that he would be, like, concerned about what I think in any way, I'm like, I don't.

Yeah, just.

I'm just excited you're here.

And then I read it and I loved it.

And.

And then I talked to him and we talked a little bit about the characters.

And later I read press interviews he gave after the show came out.

And those conversations turned out to be helpful and turned up in the show, which was really cool.

But besides those top level conversations, I didn't really have a lot to do day to day.

But that was so nice because I just trusted him so much because he's so good that I could say I'm here to help with anything because, you know, I spent a lot of time with these characters.

And I'm also happy to help by just staying out of the way and trusting you all to do what you do on this, which I was really excited to see.

And then, my God, he delivered.

Because, you know, the show, honestly, it's winning the lottery to get a show made.

And then it's like winning the lottery again to have it not flop.

Basically.

I was just hoping it would do okay, you know, and then it turned into this like, monster thing.

It's the top five all time on Netflix.

And so I said, yeah, it's.

It has more viewers than Bridgerton.

It's crazy.

It's crazy.

So I was like, okay, whatever Sean Ryan does that gets the entire world to just love it is amazing.

And it was so cool for me because there are scenes from the book, like, you know, the opening of the book and the opening of the show that are almost straight from the book.

And it's such a thrill because I grew up an 80s baby with TV and movies to think, like, stuff I write, you can just put it on screen.

And also it's a thrill to see it all rendered and have these professionals doing it.

And at the same time, by the time when I was reading and then when I was watching, I got to the end of the pilot, it was the first brand new thing from Sean because half of the show, maybe a little less, but big elements of the show are original to Sean because he had something he was working on and he kind of combined them.

So it was a really fun experience for me because I came to those twists the same way a reader would or a new viewer.

And I got the satisfaction of seeing it rendered on screen.

And then at the end, I said, what?

Who that?

Who are these People, what's with this baby?

What the hell is going on here?

So I got to come at it.

Yeah.

Fresh as the audience would.

It was just a really cool experience.

I think the single coolest thing that could possibly happen, like you just said, Matt, is to be sitting there a year, two years maybe, how many years ago, and you're writing this scene.

You come up with a scene out of nowhere.

You're hanging out in Point Loma and you have this idea, hey, what about if La LA phone rings and you write it down, you get going, and perhaps years later, you get to turn flip on the television and there it is.

That, to me, is just about as good as it gets.

It's.

It's so cool.

I mean, and.

Yeah, it's so cool.

And.

And the other thing, I mean, there's.

There's a few aspects, and it was especially cool because most authors, maybe because I have an exceptional experience here, they're like, they're adapting your show.

Are they treating you like garbage?

Are you happy?

You know, I think there's an expectation among other authors that it's not gonna go well or you're not gonna be treated well.

And I'm sure there's some substance to that somewhere in the world.

But I was really fortunate with this, and everybody was really nice to me at the premiere.

And, you know, my joke is like, oh, it's that old Hollywood story where everyone over delivers, things happen really quickly, and everyone's really nice, you know?

Right.

Yeah.

So it was.

It was great because there's some trepidation, I guess, that goes into being adapted.

And I just had a wonderful experience.

And there's also an aspect.

It's good to go see them do it, because even, I mean, regardless of how the show comes out at the end, it is such a huge, painstaking undertaking.

And I was totally in awe of how hard they work because there's a little, like, madness going on when you're finishing a book where you're just, like, working 12 hours and you're completely in this imaginary world.

And then to see, like, 500 people all doing that in the middle of the night in the tunnels under a former insane asylum in Vancouver, which is where they shot the tunnels.

It's amazing and it's shocking how hard they work and how meticulous everything has to be in a TV show.

You know, one conversation that takes five minutes of screen time takes two hours to shoot a fight scene.

The comms tower fight scene took like 14 hours.

And then when they were done, they went and shot in the tunnels under the insane asylum.

And I was completely in awe of how hard they all work.

Yeah, the number of hours in a day, it is pretty insane.

Well, let's get into Inside Threat, because this.

This book right here is something else.

It drops on 6, 13.

So there's going to be two things I'm celebrating that day.

Your book and the birthday of my late mother.

But it is.

Yeah, it is a terrific read.

And you.

I know that this is going to be talking about all this television series and so forth.

This is going to be either a television series or a movie.

I've just got a very good feeling about that.

I'm putting that power into the universe.

Let's see.

We'll see.

Maybe some news will come out.

Sure.

Maybe some news shortly.

Soon.

But nothing I can discuss yet.

No, I'm just, you know, I'm giving that all up to the big guys in the.

Where they need to be.

So I want to give you.

If I may.

And then I'm gonna.

We're gonna kind of break it down into a little elevator pitch.

Here's.

Here's what I.

This way I can do my takeaway on the book without giving anything away.

So, folks, here you go.

This is what the book has.

Questionable good guys.

Enough romance to keep you bothered.

Enough surprises to keep you engaged.

A classic bad couple who provide enough drama, while a classic thriller that provides plenty of action and even manages a surprising and unexpected twist.

Ponder that, my Matthew friend.

That sounds pretty good.

Thank you.

Now, so a lot of times I like to dig deep because I'm always making notes and I'm keeping I highlight.

I mark the hell out of the books.

And I go, there are certain things I really like.

Now here's a couple things.

And then I want your elevator pitch.

And I know you have it.

There's a few things I really like about it.

Love Eric Hill.

Which.

Who's your main guy?

I dig Amber Cody, too.

I like her attitude.

I like her grit.

I like the way she.

She.

I mean, she is the cl.

She is the best kind of female action Secret Service agent.

She's got great backstory and depth and she's not taking any crap.

And I.

Their chemistry is dynamite.

And I got to tell you something.

Your president, James Klein and First Lady Sarah I.

Without sounding like I'm saying anything bad about our current president, I'm like, these are the kind of cats that I want in office.

Oh, good.

Yeah.

You know, cuz, well, presidents are tough.

And I mean, it's hard to do presidents as real characters.

So it's nice to, you know, give them some depth and you know, to have the first lady have some depth and moxie too.

So it, it was.

Well, thank you.

Because this book, it started with kind of the movie premise of the setup of the book, which is, you know, what if the president.

This might be the elevator pitch.

It might be getting.

Yeah, give me the elevator pitch.

Here it is.

Insert here.

You know, what if the president gets locked into this huge emergency doomsday bunker, which is a real place to get away from a threat, and finds himself locked inside with a threat.

And then, you know, they see the first body turn up and then you're off to the races.

So that it was a premise driven book and it was fun to see the characters kind of populate themselves and become more complex and stuff.

And I have a great editor, Emily Crump, who really helped with like the character development and I'm really grateful for her edits on that because they, it was, it was nice to, to have somebody to go back and forth with and to, to round people out.

Yeah.

And there's one thing I really love, and I want to mention this because here in the back of the book I've got a highlighted.

You're talking about.

Well, first of all, let's start with the front.

So I love it when guys do this.

Guys like you.

First of all, I have a nice little cheat sheet.

So I know who everybody is because it's, it's chock full of agents.

And at first I, I was, I started the book Matt by going, okay, yeah, he's got a lot of characters.

And I kind of blew over that.

And then I get going, I'm like, okay, hold on, let me go back a second.

Let me, let me remind myself who's who in the lineup.

But then I dig this because I like details.

So Raven Rock Mountain complex is an actual complex.

So you get to see, you know, where the blast doors are in the cavern and the, in the war room.

And I love the description of the war room.

So he's the president.

Klein's basically got his.

A miniature Washington White House right there, here, underground.

And the different buildings in the reservoir.

But then one step further, you tell me how the main tunnel is and the buildings and how everything works.

But then back here, I love this.

He in his.

In Matt's acknowledgments, in real life, the blast doors swing rather than retract, which is interesting because you're like, well, what does that matter?

But you do.

And the springs under the buildings aren't actually tall enough to walk through, so I made them a little higher and could have a few good site fight scenes in there.

I love that kind of deal.

I guess it's a humble brag, you know, because, you know, Daniel Silva, everything in this book is real.

And if it's not real, he'll tell you, like, he'll be like, the lamppost is on the left hand side of the street.

And the acknowledgments.

And I think that's fun for me as a reader because when I read one of these, I'm in it for the story.

But if I know that I'm getting, like the real stuff and there's good research and Raven Rock is a real place.

These kind of secret emergency presidential powers where they can take over the country, those are real.

So there's.

There's.

I love being able to read a good story where I feel like, you know, I've been eating popcorn, but then at the end I feel like I also got my vegetables a little bit.

Well, we might need to revise that metaphor a little bit.

But you see where I'm going.

I got my popcorn and my broccoli all at the same time.

So I'm feeling good.

That actually sounds terrible.

Yeah.

When most people are putting M M's in there.

Well, you know, it's good when guys like David Baldacci and Jack Carr are singing your praises.

I mean, you know these guys who are busy writing their own books and, you know, they only have so much time in the day, so they're tearing through your books and they're saying glorious things.

So I love that, but I can't recall, Matt, who was it?

And perhaps you can help me with this.

Who said this?

It's the best crime thriller of the season.

Do you know who said that?

I want to give credit where credit is due, baby.

I got a quote from Michael Connolly, I think, on the Night Agent, where I was just.

I needed, like, a fainting couch because he said it was, like, one of the best books to come along in years.

And he's incredible.

So I really was blown away by that.

I'm gonna go one better for you, Matt.

Our friend Michael says the story is impossible to put out of mind, revealing, relevant, and one of the best thrillers to come along in years.

I mean, when you have Michael Conley.

And the thing is, with him, I didn't like.

It wasn't something where, you know, I had mowed his lawn growing up and I had like a Chit to call in.

I, you know, I emailed him very graciously to say, like, I love your books.

And he wrote back, he said, send me one.

And then that came through and then I passed out because I was so, I was so blown away.

You bring up a superb point and I wonder if you'll give me just a second to talk about it.

I was at Thriller Fest 2019 in New York City and I was sitting in at the feet of probably somebody like Harlan Coburn, because I remember I had such a fun hoot talking to him.

And right when you, you think as a novice writer, oh my God, I wish I could get a blurb from such and such someone on stage.

Perhaps Harlan said, hey guys, if you, if you got a favorite author, just ask them sometimes.

You never know if they'll say yes or not, but just ask them all like new to say no.

Right?

Yeah.

And you know, I mean, what's funny about authors is it's so weird because, you know, when you go to a law firm, like, I don't know, Wilmer Hale or something, you're not seeing Wilmer and Hale.

No, you know, you're seeing some guy down here.

But like, all these authors, with very rare exceptions, are one man, one woman bands.

And also because I didn't know authors growing up, so I always thought it was weird and they would be like on a pedestal or a different thing.

But except for the very tippy top people, most of us are just like excited to hear from you.

Yeah.

And even the tippy top people in thriller, mystery, suspense are total sweethearts.

And there's this wonderful culture of paying it forward.

So it's, it's always incredible what a good community it is.

All right, two things.

First of all, I do agree, I love that.

And I have found the writing community to be incredibly loving and open armed.

Secondly, did you really use the phrase tippy toppy?

Did I say tippy toppy?

Yeah, you said tippy toppy.

Yeah, you said at the tippy topping top.

Tippy top, tippy top.

Okay, tippy but still tippy top.

Not tip top, not very top, not the pinnacle.

You went tip top.

I spent a lot of time with my 15 month old, so I was gonna say.

Yeah, you're, you're, this is, this is, I'm code switching a little bit here.

So it could be much worse.

Okay.

Because I was gonna say now she was born last February, if I recall.

And you, you, you, you called her your new writing partner.

So I'm like, okay, that's that's where tippy top came from.

Because you're tippy.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Sorry to belabor that.

Had to have some fun with it.

She was in the carrier because she's a good napper, but she would only nap on me.

So when I was polishing inside Threat, I do baby stuff all morning.

And then because I ended up having to work during paternity league a little bit and then I would put her in the like Baby Bjorn thing and then she would sleep and I would spend two hours at the stand up desk polishing.

And then I was just like completely exhausted because I had this gorgeous little lump, you know, in the carrier while I was writing for two hours.

So it was really sweet.

I'm a big fan of.

I'm a big fan of naps.

Afternoon naps.

Yeah.

So next I'm wondering if I could just get in that little Bjorn and come over and visit you and just grab a little nap.

Sounds so cozy.

You might outweigh me.

It would be.

It would probably.

Can you see that?

Yeah.

I did not see it coming.

I didn't think this, this podcast was going that way, but it's fun.

Yeah.

It'd be like that tandem parachute thing.

That's what it looks like when they're in the front pacing carrier.

Yeah.

I want embarrassment.

Let's.

I'll stop there.

All right.

There are some people who say higher education isn't important.

Others say it's mandatory.

I'm probably one of those guys that has mixed feelings.

I happen to have a slew of degrees.

But I'm going to tell you something.

Reading Inside 3 threat, you're going to see how Matthew's degree in history and literature from Harvard no less, really has paid off.

Because when you're reading this, you know, this is not your average bear.

And I'm not saying that in any kind of hoodie tooty f kind of way.

I'm just saying as you read it, you know, this guy is educated and it's in it show.

So that's a compliment.

And all the.

It also begs a two part question I'm famous for.

Number one, did you have any idea that you'd be able to craft a career as successful as you've been able to do, which could be a yes or no.

And how far back does your writing passion go?

So, no, I was completely terrified.

They kind of.

They're related.

So I got into Harvard because I had done a bunch of like physics and chemistry.

Chemistry research and was good at math and I was a chemistry and Physics major.

And that was a proven thing that I was really good at.

And when you go from like a public school in New Jersey to Harvard with one thing, you're like, I should stick with this thing.

But I loved writing.

And it was around, I think, the summer after my freshman year, all of my jobs fell through and I was just doing like, I don't know, doing whatever for money and like real whatever New Jersey stuff.

And I was back in my parents house and I started writing.

And I would write like in the middle of the night, night.

And then my dad would come down for breakfast and I'd be finishing writing.

I would write on the deck in a little lawn chair with my laptop because I like.

I still like writing at night.

My schedule, I can't really do it.

You just.

It's all possibility and nobody's watching.

And that's when I first got the bug.

But I would.

I would be like clocking out of the night shift and my dad would come down and be like, what the hell is this kid doing?

He's on the deck with a lawn chair, right?

And that's when I caught the writing bug and I also caught kind of the literature bug.

But I.

I had always loved English and literature.

And the fun story is that my mom went back to school to finish her undergrad degree when I was in late elementary, early middle school.

And then she went straight through to get her master's.

So my house growing up, my dad would read like five throwers a week.

And then my mom would have like William Butler Yeats and Hilda Doolittle and Emily Dickinson, and she was getting her masters.

So she would.

There was like a standard thing in my house with my mom would go in with a stack of books and lock the door and you'd hear the IBM going.

Because she was writing a literary study and it was like the coolest thing on earth.

And she come out and they were.

So there was Joseph Kahn, Conrad, and all these translations of the Iliad.

So it was just a great stew of, you know, every kind of good story.

And I grew up on that stuff.

And also Michael Crichton.

I have a letter I wrote to Michael Crichton when I was 9 because I just like loved Jurassic Park.

So I had this nice stew and I always had this literary stuff.

And it was.

I remember in college when I wanted to switch to English because one professor took a paper I had written in sort of a Gen Ed kind of course and said, this is great.

And he read it out to the class and I was like, oh my God.

But I was terrified that I would never make a living and I switched and then I ended up getting a job in journalism.

And through that sort of figured out that the old thrower things that I had read growing up, including like just Conrad, like the, you know, the nice literary bone stuff were what I wanted to write.

And, and then in working at the Atlantic in D.C.

i got sort of the material that, that fired my imagination because in college they have you write very introspective literary stuff and I stink at that.

So my first, my first goes at first fiction were not great because I was a, you know, 19 year old kid.

I thought I had come from like, because I went to public school.

I thought I was like, you know, had come from the mean streets because Harvard was such a big distinction.

But I mean it wasn't really that big a job and, and I had nothing really to say in like a literary introspection, New Yorker short story way.

So it didn't suit me.

And I was just fortunate that I had the habit, the writing habit.

And then I was at the Atlantic so I got into the espionage, politics, foreign affairs stuff.

And then it took me forever to figure out that actually thrillers were the book I would write.

So that's kind of how it all came together.

And then I got laid off from the Atlantic and then heard back on the first thing I'd ever sent out professionally three days after I got my notice and a very big deal agent said you should keep going.

So I kept going.

And it was just two years of living off of like meager savings, about to get married, telling my father in law, like, oh don't worry, this novel will work out.

And then the novel, the Wedding was kind of my deadline for this writing project, right?

And then a month before the wedding we sold the 500 to Little Brown and the film rights to Fox.

So it's, it's like a white knuckle ride.

And I'm not one of these people who's like, well, a life in the arts and I'm sure everything will work out.

Like I'm a practical guy.

So you know, ending up with a career in the arts is not my temperament.

And the sort of roller coaster of it is still a little harrowing.

That is an amazing story because you wouldn't expect, expect that, you know, from a science guy, chemistry to the creative world and, and I think that probably prepared you beautifully to go well, you know, I'm going to give this a shot but I always have kind of this to fall back on, so to speak.

I'm not saying classically you had a plan B, but you got the smarts to know.

Well, I got a Harvard degree.

There are other things I can do if this just doesn't work.

Although at a certain point, you get old enough that, like, you know, it's too late.

I guess it's never too late, but.

It'S never too late.

No, no, no, no.

All right.

As we begin to close, there's one thing I always do, and I know you're an avid fan of the show and you watch it religiously, so you would know this.

I end each show asking my guest their best piece of writing advice.

Because I have so many listeners and viewers, both YouTube and podcasts, that probably 97.543 percentage, if you wanted to be analytical about it, that begs to hear that best advice.

So what is Matt Quirk's best piece of writing advice?

Writing advice is to get away from the computer because it's, you know, so intimidating to sit down and try to write your story.

So I will, when I'm figuring out the whole plot of a book, because I'm an outlier, I'll just kind of wander around, look like a crazy person, or walk at the cliffs here and let it all fill in.

And then once I figure it out, then I go write it down.

And then at the micro scale, when I'm writing a scene, I just kind of wander around until I picture what's going to happen in that scene and I make some voice notes and I sit down at the computer and then I write it down because I just get caught up moving words around.

And then more generally, this is two pieces of writing advice is to do the, you know, the.

The shitty first draft, they call it, right?

Because there's so much kind of stage fright and perfectionism.

And the whole thing of writing is a head game.

So to just give yourself absolute permission to write it out as rough as you want and then know you can fix it later.

And so if you combine knowing, like, having really spent time making sure the whole thing will work, with taking the pressure off yourself by letting yourself write a rough draft of it, then you have a super rough but probably like, structurally sound draft.

And then it's just revision and you can relax a little bit because you have the pages.

I love that, Matt.

And I'll tell you why I like it.

You do something that I do similarly, and I don't like it because it's similar to what I do.

Excuse me, but it's that, and I think it's so.

I think you.

You started out perfectly with it.

Sometimes when you start with that blank page, it's intimidating.

You're like, oh, where am I going to start?

And that little cursor is just blinking at you.

If you're on a computer and I do.

I'm with you.

If I have a random idea, my favorite thing in the world is to walk, preferably along the beach and just walk.

The.

The exercise of walking just frees you up.

Or driving.

That's my second favorite thing to do, is just.

You just drive.

Because this is taking care of one side of your body, brain.

You can just kind of toil on the other side.

And then.

And here's the funny thing, people will say, oh, I got to write it down right away.

How many times.

This is somewhat rhetorical, sometimes partly inquisitive, because if I have a great idea or you have a great idea, I bet you, you don't forget that idea.

You're like, oh, oh, that's interesting.

It sticks in your brain.

It's not going anywhere.

Yeah, Stephen King has some good stuff on this.

Yeah.

But don't you agree?

Because, like, if I'll have an idea, it'll.

I can.

Oh, okay.

And it just locks.

Now, I can't tell you what I had for lunch yesterday, but I can tell you what that idea was 12 years ago.

So that walking and that introspection just allows you to kind of work out the kink.

So then when you sit down, you feel the confidence is kind of built up for you, whether you're going to write it longhand or type it.

So I.

I love working that, Matt.

And.

And what I.

What I had, which was a real problem for me, coming from math and physics and chemistry, was the idea that there was a right answer.

Right.

And that you could do things schematically, formulaically.

So in my first English papers, in my first books, I thought there was a process and a solution.

And I now know that the process is like, wander along and let the folds in your brain do their bizarre, sedimentary.

Whatever they do to ideas, and then at the end, you'll have the right answer.

I was not ready for that.

And so I spent a lot of years kind of struggling, thinking I could just move words around on a page.

So I hear you that, like, the weird misto things that your brain does when you're just walking or just letting an idea gestate, that's how it works, and that's all there is to it.

You just need time and you need focus, which is really hard for people to find.

And when you're walking, you're not, like, trying to perfect it on a computer.

And you're not, you know, hopefully not dicking around on your phone.

Yeah, hopefully not dicking around on your phone.

Yeah.

Just say no to dicking on the phone.

The.

What I especially like about that is that you and you.

And you said this.

You're giving yourself permission.

I don't want to belabor the point, but you're giving yourself permission to just, oh, that didn't work.

Oh, that didn't work.

Oh, I can see why that doesn't work.

And I think that's a lot of it.

Just give yourself permission to eff it up a little bit.

Yeah.

And also, like, if you're letting things.

If you're spending a lot of time just thinking about things, you don't have 2,000 words as you were trying out whether this guy should have, you know, been attacked by a bear when he was young or whatever.

Right.

And so it's easier to.

Everything's faster because you're not attached to these things you've already written and invested in.

Right.

And sometimes you'll write, go ahead.

Well, and the rough draft is the same way, because you'll go back and you'll reread the whole thing, and you'd be like, this character doesn't work.

And if.

Yeah, and this is just for me.

If I had written that character and been, like, weeping at the beauty of all these lines I wrote with that character, and.

And then all the polishing and my turn of phrase when I.

And then I have to go back later and just cut that character.

I am not.

I'm not psychologically or emotionally capable of that.

But if it's like, hey, I threw that up in an afternoon and it was fine.

And reading it now, I realize, like, the hero doesn't need two people they're trying to save, then I can get rid of it.

So that's.

You know, you kind of.

It has advantages coming and going, I should say.

Yeah, yeah.

Hold for passing plane.

That's the point.

Yeah.

The.

I just.

I'm just picturing you, man.

I'm just picturing you weeping over the keyboard.

I know.

I get emotional.

I get emotional, and then.

And sometimes it's for great stuff.

And the worst thing is when you write something like that and then you give it to your agent or editor, and they're like, oh, that was flat.

That was really flat.

And you're like, I was in tears.

And it's just because you get and this is why it's so subjective and sometimes things don't work.

You're so close to it.

You're literally sharing subjectivity with these characters or in their mind that you you've completely lost perspective.

Well, this has been a great time, Matt.

I'm looking at the clock.

I'm running a little bit late.

We're in I got a little pressure situation.

So let's go ahead and ring off here.

But I want to say, folks, if you want to learn more, visit Matthew Quirk.com youm'll see it here on the screen.

Follow him on Twitter as I do at M.

Quirk.

And he's on both Instagram and Facebook at the same place called Matthew Quirk.

Quirk author.

Matt, thanks so much for showing.

Thank you.

Yeah, this was a bl.